dr4b | Car shopping adventures with Megan

Car shopping adventures with Megan

This is split off from my weekend entry because I figure people will want to tell me lots of opinions on cars, because everyone has opinions on cars.

First we went to the Volkswagen dealer in the U-District. We looked around at different cars... I think the Beetles are too small. I mostly was interested in the Jettas I guess (my brother has one). I got to test drive one -- it was pretty good, I guess, it drove well and I liked the way it felt, but it was vaguely uncomfortable in terms of the seat, and the brake pedal placement, and whatnot. The car salesman guy was pretty nice though, and answered bunches of questions.

Then we went up to the Lynnwood Honda dealer. I test-drove a Honda Civic Hybrid and a Honda Civic. I reeeeeeally liked the way the Hybrid drove, and felt, and I was really kinda surprised by that, but eh. I only got to take it around side streets and not go any faster than like 40 mph, so I wonder how it handles on highways, but, seriously, it felt like a really nice car. The normal Civic I felt was a really *comfortable* car. I drove their "value pack" Civic, which sells new for about $15k, and it just felt like, hey, I'm just like, drivin' this car, it's really natural, etc. To alleviate my concerns about security, they explained that all the Civics are chipped now so they can't be operated without the key there - most Civics that get ripped off these days are either earlier models or they're like, people who put $2000 tires on their cars, etc. So, hmm. The salesman at Honda kinda put me off though - he seemed interested in showing me cars but he didn't really seem interested in SELLING me a car. I guess it's a shame Charlie isn't selling Hondas anymore because I would have bought one from him in an instant!

After that we went to a Toyota dealer in Lake City. The salesman there had just started like ten days ago so he didn't know as much as other people would, I guess. What we did find out is that there was no freaking way I could test drive a Prius there as they currently had a 3-month wait for them anyway. I did test drive a Corolla because my brother used to have one of those too, and eh, it was comfortable, but LOUD. Not sure I really wanted to deal with it. I looked at the Echo cars too, since I remembered many a trip to the BVM in Rebecca's car, but eh, I'm not sure that'd really be the car for me either.

So then we were done for the day. Note that the reason I didn't actually buy a car is specifically because at the start of the day Megan said "Don't buy a car today. We're just looking." Although then she almost talked me into buying a Honda later on...

I guess what I really need to think about now is... can I really afford the Civic Hybrid? Or would I be better off just getting a normal Civic? Or a used Jetta? Or something else?

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If you have any questions about the civic hybrid, feel free to ask.

Ditto that. Love love love mine. :) You could also join my silly LJ community for them if you want to see what other people think.

Test drive a Subaru. :)

We drove past Subaru twice, but my opinion was that when you buy a subaru you pay for things like all wheel drive, which Dee doesn't care about. Also, their cars are at a slightly higher, er, luxury level than VW or Honda. Am i wrong? I'd love details.

Subarus are definitely worth checking out, but yes, aren't as intriguing if there's no interest in all wheel drive. I'd disagree strongly that they're at a higher luxury level than VWs, but that's just my opinion.

I think the numbers show that VW has some less expensive options than Subaru (which doesn' thave a gulf), but, yes, some of this is just my perception that VWs should be less expensive and appears to be a little off. I OWN a subaru, so i surely think they have a place in the world. But i would have bought a VW if i hadn't wanted AWD.

Main reasons I like Subaru.

1) AWD. I like it.
2) Sport wagons on same chassis as the sedans. And look good in my opinion.

So basically you get cars that handle really well, with decent power, and can haul an absolute ton of stuff no problem. Great torque in the 2.5L engine. I have the 2L turbo wagon with a trailer hitch and it's the best all around vehicle I can think of.

Only dislike is with the engine and AWD you do get only 23-25 MPG, but I was willing to sacrifice that.

The TS Wagon is a great deal in my opinion from Subaru. Outback Sport as well is rather cheap for what you get.

Anyways, anybody who's looking for cars should test drive various cars. It's fun even if you decide you don't like them in the end.

I think Kiefer just bought a Civic Hybrid, if you want to ask him how he feels about it. I don't think he's had it a week yet, though. :) My personal attitude towards the hybrid cars is that I'd rather wait for them to become more widespread and (theoretically) cheaper/easier to service. Gasoline-powered cars can be taken in for service pretty much anywhere, and I like that. How many places outside of a Toyota dealer can service a hybrid Toyota if something goes wrong?

What's wrong with the Honda guy seeming more interested in showing you cars than in selling you one? That's just the kind of salesman I'd want to deal with, personally. If he's happy to keep showing you stuff without pushing you to buy something, wouldn't that be good? Unless you think he wasn't taking you seriously as a customer due to something lame, like gender issues.

Well, it was more like, as Megan pointed out, the minute I said something like that I was more interested in looking than in buying, at the moment, he kinda just walked off, gave me a brochure on the Civics, and didn't really try to spend any more time answering questions. I guess it just seemed a little weird. The Jetta salesman had honestly seemed interested in telling us more about the cars and the options for leasing, pre-owned, etc... I dunno.

I don't know anything about getting the Toyota hybrids fixed, but I think the Honda dealers can deal with fixing the Honda Civic hybrids. It seems like those have become a lot more stable in the past few years than they used to be when hybrid technology was first introduced... eh. I don't know. It's a lot to think about.

Ah, I think I misunderstood what you meant. So it was more of a "Oh, you're not thinking of buying today? I better not waste much time with you, then..." sort of thing? At first, I thought you meant he was willing to show you stuff and answer questions, but wasn't really interested in "talking shop" about the cars, so to speak.

Realistically, if the dealership was busy at the time, I could see where he'd want to spend more time talking to someone who hadn't already dismissed the possibility of buying that day. That's not very helpful for you, though. :) (Telling him so was honest, but likely counterproductive.)

Take my Toyota remark and substitute the word Honda for it. I was just wondering if it is (reasonably) possible to get a hybrid serviced anywhere other than at the dealership.

EDIT>
My third attempt to post this. Feh.

No, if the dealer lost interest in a potential customer just because she said she was "just looking", he wasn't doing a very good job of being a dealer. Someone who is "just looking" is still a potential buyer, and the more experienced dealers will actually work HARDER to convince you that you really want to buy one of their cars. If this guy just walked away at that point, I'd say go to a different dealership. :P

I made no statements about whether the behavior of the dealer was appropriate or not. I simply said that I could understand why he might behave that way when told that the person is "just looking".

I've only had my Civic for a few days, but I have more experience with it than you might think. ;) My dad has an '03 Civic Hybrid, and I've gotten to drive it a number of times - including on a long trip to Las Vegas about a year and a half ago. The one I just got is smoother and quieter than his, but they're pretty much the same car. :)

How much does a hybrid run for, anyways? I'm in the market for a new car myself... I'm looking at the Subaru Impreza and Toyoto Corolla so far. Hopefully I'll have time for some test drives on Sunday.

List price on my '04 Hybrid was around $23K. I managed to bargain it down to $21K, and I got it at 2.9% APR for 60 months. Added a few options (60-month warranty, with the Integrated Motor Assist parts and electric motor rated at 8 years, 80,000 miles), the Perma-Plate protection stuff, and I put a little less than $1000 down. My monthly payments come out to about $440 per month. Not too bad, all things considered. :)

That doesn't sound too bad at all, actually. Now, what make was that? I'm only aware of Honda having a hybrid, but from the thread here, I'm getting the impression Toyota has one too.

Honda has the Civic Hybrid, and may still have the Insight, but that's all but gone from what I understand.

Toyota has the Prius, which was actually the Motor Trend Car of the Year for 03-04.

They're both nice cars, and they both start at just over $20k.

Honda plans to discontinue the Insight this year. There won't be an '05 Insight.

Just as well - it wasn't selling that well to begin with. The Insight is only marginally better on mileage than the Civic, it's not as powerful, and it's really small - not very practical if you plan on transporting people and cargo on a regular basis.

Yeah. There are currently three Hybrid vehicles out on the market: The Honda Insight (the first-generation hybrid, a really tiny 2-seater car), the Honda Civic Hybrid (which we've been discussing - it is specifically called the Civic Hybrid), and the Toyota Prius.

The Prius is an amazing car - if I could have held out for one, I probably would have. It uses a different drive train than the Civic - puts its emphasis on the electric motor and uses the gas engine to charge the battery and provide extra thrust when necessary. It's also a very high-tech car, with tons of neat gadgetry in the dashboard (namely an onboard computer with a touch screen). Very neat car - also a very smooth ride, though I'm not sure I agree with Toyota's claim that it's quieter than the Civic.

If you look back about three weeks to a month or so in my LiveJournal

kieferskunk, you'll find a couple of posts I've written about comparing the Prius to the Civic Hybrid. I did quite a bit of research into both these vehicles.

The Prius is a bit more expensive than the Civic, and Toyota is NOT allowing any negotiation on the price - it's an MSRP car. It's also got the distinct disadvantage of not being immediately available - in fact, the dealers around here were all telling me the wait was 4-6 months. :P

Cool; thanks for the info!

I can't help myself:

Jason - i'd like to hear what you feel about the civic. We own an Insight, but my feeling is that the civic would fix any and all issues we have with the insight, and really be a nice car. (Issues include that it is not very luxurious, mostly.) We feel that it drives well and has ample power. Do find that to be the case with the civic hybrid?

Person i dont' know - the hybrid technology is well established. There are honda and toyota dealerships densely populating this country, so i don't know why having to deal with them for the hybrid-specific maintanance would be an issue (as far as i can tell, we've never had anything done to the Insight that would have required the dealer - and its about 5 years old). Things like normal oil changes, tires, whatever, are just like normal cars, so this shouldn't be a draw back.
The hybrids have been around for about 5 years in the US, and most of the bugs have been worked out.
Also, how do you expect the technology to become more widespread if no one is willing to take a risk and buy a slightly less common car??
I, personally, don't feel like the fact that hybrid powertrains are not as well established as gasoline powertrains should be a hindrance.

It looks like the Civic Hybrid sells for about $20,800 , and has the equivalent package to the luxury civis ($18,800). For comparison, the civic package that is not too luxurious, but has nice things like automatic locks and windows is $16,900. So, you're paying a bit more, and gas savings alone may not make up for it. But you support the technology.

For more facts,
Toyota Prius: $20,500,
Toyota Corolla: $15,270
Subaru Legacy: $19,400
VW Jetta: $19,500
Volvo S40: %24,600

I'm not sure all the trims are really comprable. Toyota seems to split up between the echo, corolla, and whatever that next thing is what Honda groups into Civic. VW has in the Golf what the lower end civics have. Only Toyota and Honda have hybrids.

As to salesmen, only the VW guy seemed really enthusiastic about helping us find the right car for us. The Honda guy didn't even stick around to show us used cars, which sort of peeved me. But, if Dee gets a Honda, she doesn't have to use the same sales person.

I'm in favor the civic hybrid, can anyone tell?

As far as used Hondas, you may as well go with a new one. That's my opinion of course, but Hondas retain enough value that not too much will be saved by getting a used one, and that way you aren't inheriting someone else's car with unknown issues (which very well may be non-existant).

If you don't like the salesman at the Honda dealership, think about going to another one. As someone else said, I'd find it refreshing for a salesman to be willing and interested in showing me cars, but not pressuring a sale upon me, but that's just me.

I think I'm the one you referred to as "Person I don't know".

As far as whether having to go to the dealership is an "issue" or not... I've been led to believe that having work done on your car at the dealership is generally more expensive than having it done elsewhere. I continued to have my car serviced at the dealership simply because it was under warrantee, and that was an easy way to prove that I was keeping it maintained if something went wrong. :) I'm just concerned that if dealerships are the only place to get a hybrid car's electrical system worked on (maybe they're not), the dealerships may be able to charge more than would be considered 'reasonable' for this service.

Also, you said:
Also, how do you expect the technology to become more widespread if no one is willing to take a risk and buy a slightly less common car??

I'm not interested in being the sort that helps PAY for the technology becoming more widespread. I'll wait for other people to do that, and if it never happens, that's life. :) That's why I didn't seriously consider the hybrid vehicles when I went shopping for a car 3 years ago. I might help encourage a "new technology" item by buying it if it is a few hundred dollars, but not if it costs $20K.

Did I really type "warrantee"? Gah. It's a real word, but not the one I had in mind. I meant "warranty".

Hi Dea. :) There's a few things you'll probably want to know about the Civic Hybrid. I just got one, so if you're curious, I'd be happy to let you try driving mine for a bit and give you a REAL test-drive. (The only thing it won't show you is how it'll feel once the car is fully broken-in - that's not going to happen for a few months yet.)

The Civic Hybrid is flat-out the smoothest drive I have ever experienced. In addition to the wonderful suspension that smoothes out the drive and reduces road noise, there is plenty of sound-proofing material in the car, and the automatic-transmission model uses a Continuously Variable Transmission (CVT), which makes acceleration incredibly smooth. There's no shifting whatsoever - feels kinda weird at first, but trust me when I say that regular automatics will feel weird after a short time.

The car handles much the same on the freeway as it does in-town, and it's only marginally louder there (road noise, etc). Mine feels and sounds like riding in a train, even on the rough areas of 405. It's quick and responsive there - acceleration is a little on the weak side compared to many other cars (at least with the CVT), but it is capable. Overall, the most pleasant experience on the freeway I've ever had.

As for dealerships: I highly recommend Honda of Bellevue. I know it's a ways away, but the salespeople here are very nice, not too terribly pushy, and both my dad and I have had good experiences there. Their service department is also quite good, though you'd probably want to go to the Seattle dealership for service stuff once you have the car, if you decide to go that route.

If you're still curious about the Civic Hybrid and how it drives, etc., lemme know and we'll arrange for a time to meet up, and I'll let you take it for a spin. :)

I got to test drive one, [the Jetta] -- it was pretty good, I guess, it drove well and I liked the way it felt, but it was vaguely uncomfortable in terms of the seat, and the brake pedal placement, and whatnot.

My strongest recomendation is don't buy a car that feels a little uncomfortable in a 10-15 minute test drive. That feeling will likely only grow worse, and you will hate it on long trips.

The Toyota being loud surprises me. When I test-drove a Camry-Solara it was one of the quietest cars I'd ever been in. It surprised me, but I wasn't shopping for a quiet car, I wanted other features.

Were there any cars from the Psion line on the Toyata lot? I think that's their new line for younger customers. I have no recolection what the quality would be, I just am curious if they are in the market yet.

Yeah, i say go with your guy on test drive feels.

The Psion line, sadly, doesn't come out until this summer. I don't think Dee wants to wait another couple of months, although i think they LOOK like cool cars. =)

I have a 2000 Honda Civic EX. I love it. The EX is important. It's zippy. (I couldn't find an SI, which is zippier.)

I've never driven the Honda Civic hybrid, but I plan to test drive one soon. I'm interested if it can keep up with my EX. I've looked at them off and on for the past 3 years, and each year they get better, but this past year was the first year it actually came with cruise control, which is one of the first things I look at. No cruise control, not a car. Speeding ticket trap.

I saw an adorable Honda hatchback last weekend, and I'm wondering what it was...

Subaru impreza ROCKS for the driver. Not for the passengers.

My Honda Civic is very comfy to sit in, and even though it's only 2 door, there's a LOT of leg room in the front and back seats for such a "little" car.

I too have a 2000 Civic EX. I wouldn't say it's that zippy, but maybe it's because it's an automatic :P

I like it though. Nothing has broken on it, and it's comfortable and runs well.

I forgot to mention, the reason I got the EX is because I really wanted anti-lock brakes. I wonder if Honda putting ABS on only the EX/Hybrid trim levels makes them more money (from upselling) or less money (from people not buying Civics).

just one more comment, i promise

i bought the 2K civic because i *didn't* want anti-lock brakes. for about the same reason i only drive stickshift. the car's a machine, responsible for my life - so i want to be its brains.

Yeah, I completely forgot that not all EX models had ABS, and it was hard to find in the south.

Anyway, someone driving with ABS who isn't used to it can be just as dangerous as someone driving without ABS who isn't used to pumping the brake pedal. Just look at the spate of accidents when police departments started buying cars equipped with it without adequately training officers, about 10-15 years ago. Practice makes perfect.

It might not be zippy cause you never put your foot down on the accelerator either? :)

Just having fun. Really, I agree, a 1.7L engine is not going to feel too zippy even with a manual. My Sentra was the same (though automatic too).

The zippiness of a Honda Civic is inversely proportional to the number of people riding in it.

HAH!!! this is also VERY true.

oh yeah. i forgot to mention my 2K civic is stickshift.
the other requirement when i'm choosing cars is they have to be manual. you know some people can't drive stickshift? i can't drive an automatic.

That zippiness which it does have seems to start somewhere around 5500 RPM. :)

I think definitions of zippiness changes when one has a WRX and an R6. :)

For me, there are two important steps to buying a car:

1) Find the car you want

I think you're doing well on this. You definitely want to test drive different models and make a list of your must-have options (like george's cruise control) versus your would be nice options (touchscreen dashboard). Never buy a car right after test driving. Never let someone pressure you into buying 'today'. If anyone tries to do that, walk out. They are not who you want to buy from. Which leads me to the second part of buying a car: once you know what you want...

2) Find the dealership you want to buy it from

Unless you're buying a ferrari (and maybe even then) you should always have a slew of options of dealerships to buy from, and you should evaluate all of them. Things you want to take into account:

Price - Before you even talk about specifics, ask the dealer for his best price relative to invoice. Give him a general idea of what you're going to buy (i.e. a Civic Hybrid) without specifying any particular options, and ask for his best price. On my first trip to a dealer, I found that $1000 over invoice (a number I threw out there) was a drool-worthy number for a dealership, and thereafter I always just let them give me a number. The ultimate total cost of the specific car you're buying will then simply derive from the invoice price for the car you want with all of the options you want. And you can change your mind about options without having to renegotiate the deal.

Location - Will it be easy and/or convenient for you to get back there for service? Is it on the way to work? Do you have a friend who can give you a ride in when you need to drop it off in the morning?

Service Hours - Some shops are open 8am-7pm. Others (like mine) are open 6am - midnight! Depending on your schedule, (and their location) that may play a major role in your choice.

Sleaze factor - A reasonable salesperson will want to confirm you know what you want and make sure you haven't missed any options that might be of interest. A sleazeoid will try to sell you what's convenient for him - usually something off the lot, since that clears his inventory and gets him points with management. Once you know for certain what you want, don't allow yourself to be talked out of it. If the dealer you want to buy from doesn't have what you want, then just order it. If they argue, point out that an ordered car is guaranteed no-risk income for them, so they should have no good reason for not doing it, and the first priority should be you getting exactly the car you're looking for.

In the end, I had price offers for $1000, $500, $250, $50, and $0 over invoice. I ended up taking the $250 offer (despite the sub-optimal location in Monroeville, when I lived in Squill at the time) because 1) the service hours actually matched my crazy schedule. (Midnight! they are open and have mechanics working until midnight!) and 2) the salesman I was working with 'got it'. He understood right away that I knew what car and specs I wanted (and that it would have to be ordered), that I wanted the best price they could reasonably offer, and that was that. From there on, his purpose was making sure my specs got correctly translated into the order to the factory, and arranging the paperwork.

I was highly amused to walk back into one of the dealerships I hadn't chosen, and who had told me that their $500 over invoice was their "best offer, and the best you'll get anywhere around here" and after telling them about the offer I did take, that suddenly they were able to offer $50 over invoice... That sleaze feeling I'd gotten from them had been quite right.

Anyway, the short version of all this is: Figure out what you want, and then visit and evaluate every possible place you might be able to get it, and then buy from your best option. Sorry for the superfluous verbosity... ;)

i highly recommend checking out Fighting Chance. I got their book when I was buying my car last year, and while it didn't help too much with the used cars, it seemed to have lots of great ideas for buying new cars. Since new cars are pretty much the same everywhere, if you know what car you want, you can just fax a whole bunch of dealers and make them compete with each other, and they give you a whole strategy for doing that kind of thing.

I have the first edition of the book and am not using it, I could mail it to you if you like. Also, used book stores might have some good car-buying books as well.

You're smart enough that I suspect you've looked into these things already, but just in case, I wanted to help out. :) Good luck!

I'll put my vote in with the Honda Civic [Hybrid] crowd. I'm driving a '94 DX with 167k miles on it, and it's still going strong. We had a '00 EX that was quite enjoyable, but we upgraded this fall to a Subaru Outback Wagon (so that we could drive in the snow while hauling lots of stuff). But I agree that you don't really need the AWD of a Subaru. I also think that hybrid technology has been around enough that I would be comfortable buying a Civic Hybrid or a Prius. (Aside: where are all these SUV hybrids they keep talking about?) I think VW Jettas are a still little cramped and clunky.

We are planning to get a Civic Hybrid, unless hybrid station wagons (probably also Honda) make an appearance sometime within the next few years. I am biased, coming from a heavily Honda family-- both my parents and I have '93s, me a Civic sedan and they an Accord wagon. Both are running very well. I don't know what it is-- I just don't like Toyotas as much. We've had a Subaru, bought new, and I think it was a bit more prone to quirks than some cars. I also have a friend with a VW Passat and (thought it was ranked highly by Consumer Reports) has a HORRIBLE electrical system, problems w/windows, engine lights, crap like that. Makes me sad; I like VWs a lot otherwise.

Honda just gives you SO much car for the money. And I really just don't like the Prius. The newer Prius looks okay, but having a Prius says, "Look at me! I hug trees!" The Civic is the best of both worlds.

I bought a Prius in January (well, put a deposit down on one, I'm still waiting). I didn't have too much trouble finding a test drive. The civic hybrid was just so boring. I guess I'm a sucker for tech toys. The pick up on the Prius was acceptable (I'm used to a V6 gas engine, so that IS saying something).
Overall the prius is better hybrib tech than the civic, it shows in how it runs and in the gas mileage. Toyota is selling them at a loss so they can sell SUVs, so why not capitalize on it and get a $35,000 car for $22,500 (which is what I will pay with the option package 7).

What makes you say the Prius is better hybrid tech than the civic? When i did the bulk of my research a few years ago, i would have argued the other direction. (Although, some of this depends on whether you do highway or city driving.) I'm curious.
Sadly, waiting for Toyota to get more Priae in would suck.

The prius has a planetary gear system with a CVT (continuously variable transmission). The civic only adds battery assist to a normal engine. What this means is that when the civic needs to move, it always uses the engine, while the prius only uses the gas engine when it either needs to recharge the battery or to give extra power (you can can safely run at speeds <30mpg with a full battery and not use the engine at all to be moving).
The CVT gives it more opimal gas mileage (the civic still has gears, so obviously they're not always running in the optimal zone).
And the waiting isn't too bad, since my old car is running fine still.

the waiting is probably not what dee wants.

The civic hybrid automatic has a continuously variable transmission. (cool technology, btw, which should probably be used in more vehicles -- part of what you pay for, though.) While the Prius uses more battery in city driving, and therefore gets better mileage in the city, it gets worse mileage in highway driving than the civic, which is still running the same small engine it does in the city. I'm not convinced that either system is clearly superior.

Ah, yes, my error the civic does have cvt on the automatic, still, this web page decirbes the difference:

http://zebu.uoregon.edu/2001/ph162/i3.html

I still find the fact thta many circumstances which make the prius use the gas engine less means that it's better tech, but, I will allow that to be a matter of opinion. :)

The pick up on the Prius was acceptable (I'm used to a V6 gas engine, so that IS saying something).

I suppose I should drive out to Carnival so you can experience the difference in pick up between a wee V6 and a V8. The V6 used to impress me as well. :)

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Car shopping adventures with Megan

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on the buying of the car

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'04 Prius

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