Sunday
I really, really, really, really, REALLY hate how addictive "Run To You" is. Maybe I ought to go play some PIU today later. Hmm, it's ![[profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
nickjong's birthday - we could drag him to D&B :)
No, so anyway, today there was Carl D&D, which went kind of annoyingly... I had a big rules debate - namely, can you make your players make saving throws when they aren't actually saving against anything? and left at the end screaming at him and walking out. Of course, after 20 minutes of pinball and thinking I realized that I suck and called him to apologize. But, the session really sucked for me. I haven't had much of an attention span lately for D&D... I dunno if it's because the groups are too big or if it's just me.
I did run into bunches of people in the UC though. Saw Roman, and ran into some PGSS people on their way to dinner.. Neil Simonetti is still doing math for them. Geez, he was one of *my* TA's, 9 years ago. Some of my students from 96-98 are various forms of TAs and reslife people, which is also sort of scary. And so on.
After all that I went to Sunday dinner. We grilled! Wheeeeeee! Also Lori's sister is in town now, which was sort of fun. Paul and Mary showed up, and I hadn't seen them since like April. Actually, I hadn't seen Ralph in a while either. It was cool to show off my ring more, and Lori lent me a bunch of wedding books. (It seems to be a theme.) The cats are huge now - not really kittens anymore. Also, turkey burgers are tastier than I thought they'd be. Ralph and Lori's one-year-old wedding cake also wasn't so bad, although I was just really really full at that point. We played a game called Gouda Gouda which involved trying to get your mice to the top of a thingy so you could get some cheese. It was a lot of dice rolling but was surprisingly complicated.
I drove home. I hate street cleaning. Hi.
nickjong's birthday - we could drag him to D&B :)No, so anyway, today there was Carl D&D, which went kind of annoyingly... I had a big rules debate - namely, can you make your players make saving throws when they aren't actually saving against anything? and left at the end screaming at him and walking out. Of course, after 20 minutes of pinball and thinking I realized that I suck and called him to apologize. But, the session really sucked for me. I haven't had much of an attention span lately for D&D... I dunno if it's because the groups are too big or if it's just me.
I did run into bunches of people in the UC though. Saw Roman, and ran into some PGSS people on their way to dinner.. Neil Simonetti is still doing math for them. Geez, he was one of *my* TA's, 9 years ago. Some of my students from 96-98 are various forms of TAs and reslife people, which is also sort of scary. And so on.
After all that I went to Sunday dinner. We grilled! Wheeeeeee! Also Lori's sister is in town now, which was sort of fun. Paul and Mary showed up, and I hadn't seen them since like April. Actually, I hadn't seen Ralph in a while either. It was cool to show off my ring more, and Lori lent me a bunch of wedding books. (It seems to be a theme.) The cats are huge now - not really kittens anymore. Also, turkey burgers are tastier than I thought they'd be. Ralph and Lori's one-year-old wedding cake also wasn't so bad, although I was just really really full at that point. We played a game called Gouda Gouda which involved trying to get your mice to the top of a thingy so you could get some cheese. It was a lot of dice rolling but was surprisingly complicated.
I drove home. I hate street cleaning. Hi.
no subject
Ummm, if the players' characters don't know about it, *they can't act like they know about it*. I had an issue like that when I was DM as well, and have as a player as well, and only ONE person (incidentally the same person who I am having a problem with in this campaign) really took personal offense at it. He also generally uses a lot of OOC knowledge in the game, though.
The thing is, if the party cares so much, tell THEM to start unlocking chests and disarming traps. I got really pissed off once because my rogue was disarming and unlocking things and taking tons of nasty shit in the face from time to time as a result, but often wouldn't actually get anything out of the chests and stuff. (This was why I had her swipe two scrolls and not tell the party about it.) Is this rogue some alignment other than lawful and (preferably) some alignment other than good? If so, they're acting perfectly in character, I'd think.
Also, believe it or not, you don't have to make your players completely paranoid to make them cautious. Actually, making your players paranoid makes them WORSE -- then you have your party going up and attacking EVERYTHING they see, since obviously everything you describe is a trap you've set up.
But at any rate, your example in this case is also not a valid example of why spurious saves are okay. Your example is just yet again complaining about a meta-gaming munchkin. Here, I've got an example for you.
We've determined that if a spellcaster is invisible and casts a spell, it is an attack spell if it causes people to make saving throws (or obviously if it causes damage - yes, I know there are damage spells with no saving throw), and therefore negates Invisibility. (Therefore, casting... oh, I dunno, Polymorph Other on someone will make you visible. Sure, it is not a "damaging" spell per se, but it is a spell someone would resist with adverse affects if they do not. Therefore it is an attack spell.)
Okay, so suppose you have a player character in a room and they know that there is an invisible foe in the room - they chased them into this room and then the foe went invisible. This is what you're going to get if you have them make a spurious will save:
DM: You hear the guy casting. Make a will save.
Fighter: I roll a ____. Where is the asshole? I go attack him on my turn.
DM: Huh? You don't see anything.
Fighter: He must have cast an attack spell on me, or I wouldn't have had to save.
DM: Shrug. You don't feel or see anything.
Fighter: Dammit. Improved invisibility, huh? I am going into blind-fighting mode and swinging my sword around every inch of this room until I find him.
Now, in "reality", several things could have happened. One is that the foe teleported or dimension doored out. Alternately, they could be wearing Boots of Elvenkind and silently moved past the guy and out of the room after casting something like Mage Armor or Shield on himself. But, what was the will save for? It was the DM being an asshole. That's really about it. It's not like the player felt themselves shaking off a magic effect or anything, which is what they assume when you make them save.
Now, of course you'd look silly if it had gone more like:
DM: You hear the guy casting. Make a will save.
Fighter: I roll a ____. Where is the asshole? I go attack him on my turn.
DM: Huh? You don't see anything.
Wizard: I make a spellcraft check. *Rolls something insanely high* What was it?
DM: *sighs* Dimension Door.
Fighter and Wizard, in unison: Then what the heck was the will save for, you asshole?
Surely you can see how in the long run this is not a proper way to do things.
no subject
Anyway, I agree with you on the rogue and taking treasure off the top thing. In fact, the Rogue in Question is Chaotic Neutral, and thus I consider it perfectly in character. The problem is the other party members. The conversation goes like this:
Shopkeeper: What can I get you?
Rogue: I'll get that +3 dagger
Cleric (innocently): Where'd you get the money for that?
Rogue: I picked it up a few adventures back.
Cleric: NO YOU DIDN'T YOU LYING BASTARD. SEE, PAUL, I have it right here. His share of party income matched up with his expenditures for the last eight sessions. Now I've got you! You thief!
Rogue: That's not fair!
Cleric: Can I help it if my character is naturally suspicious?
DM: You really bought a solid gold tiki idol?
As far as the situation where the fighter and wizard simultaneously say 'Then what the heck was the will save for, you asshole?' Well, I've been in that situation a number of times before and the correct response to that question is a raised eyebrow, a sinister smug grin, and a shrug of the shoulders. It works. Do it often enough and it keeps the players on their toes and they begin to expect it. I'm starting to have the opposite problem with my players - they don't persue some subtle clues because they figure it's just another red herring.